Get in touch

The goal of the vaccine rollout is to first protect the most vulnerable in society. But what happens when the system keeps out those who need it most? Rich walks us through his frustrating experience navigating New York’s vaccine website. He breaks down the design barriers causing accessibility issues and offers fixes to reduce friction in the process.

Transcript

Rich Ziade Paul, before you answer this, I just want to highlight to everyone listening. I’m not a Coldplay fan, but continue.

Paul Ford It’s like, you know what, as I get older, there’s a couple good songs.

RZ You know what, there is a couple of good songs. My kids like them.

PF They’re fine. Like you just like you can spend your life being upset about Coldplay. It’s Coldplay, it’s not Maroon 5, like it’s okay. [music fades in, plays alone for 15 seconds, ramps down]

RZ Paul. 

PF Oh, my goodness, Richard.

RZ So my mom is the ultimate user. It’s fun to watch her use a computer, use a phone, actually, more so these days.

PF Sam is smart as hell. And she’s an amazing social operator. And she thinks that everything you do for a living is nonsense.

RZ She can’t believe I make a living at all.

PF Yeah, she just thinks it’s comedy. And so you put computers in front of her. And she’s just like, why would I bother? I have sons.

RZ A week ago, a little over a week ago from when this is being recorded in New York City, which is where my mother lives. We live in Brooklyn. She lives about 15 minutes away from me—they announced that they were going to loosen up restrictions to get vaccinated. And they lowered the age requirement, I think from 75 to 65. My mom is 69. As soon as they did that, I said let’s see if we can get my mom vaccinated. 

PF But also she’s she’s had some health issues. She really she should be. I mean, by every definition, she should be in that line. 

RZ She should be in that line. 100%. So obstacle one, I, here’s what I can do. Let’s get this out of the way. And this is what most people can’t do. What most people can’t do is tell their parent, who’s 65 or older, to just go and register and get vaccinated.

PF Unless you like listening to an old lady cry.

RZ That’s right. So first off from a communication perspective, let’s actually even go a step before that even, my mom would have never found out I have news feeds, I use Feedly. I follow Twitter, I get pings, when when Cuomo puts another press conference out, I’m so connected and online, she would have never known. So strike one, the city probably knows my mom’s cell number through various means, whether it be Medicaid or whatever. Like there’s all sorts of agencies that know who my mom is, you got a message old people don’t email them, because my mom hasn’t opened her email. And it was, I opened it for her recently. And I gotta tell you, there are a lot of banks who want to refinance my mom’s credit, I just a lot of garbage. So you need to message them on their phones the way their grandkids do. So step one, the communication out there, there are a lot of elderly people in New York City who just have no idea that they can go get it, they don’t know!

PF You know, it’s worth noting here too, like, I want to be mindful of this boundary, because it gets sort of brought up is like, yeah, make it so dumb, your mom can understand it. A parent will figure out how to use a phone, they will basically get a degree in advanced nuclear physics in order to get easy, steady access to pictures of their grandchildren in a timely manner. Like your mom, if you said, your mom, there’s really no way for you to get those pictures, unless you get a PhD in cosmology, she’s gonna be like, “Alright, she’s like, fine, give me a telescope, let’s go” they are motivated to learn the UX patterns that align with their interests. And some of the patterns inside and especially mobile are really good. And they really line up with the way people think. But then you hit this threshold where the other 95 or 99% of software exists, everyone is left behind, but that little leap that you or I would make where we’d be like, “Well, I guess we’re gonna fill out the form” and then there’s a crappy wizard. They’re just like, what is this? I don’t, I’d rather fill out a form on paper and go to the office. But because we’re so digital, and we’re remote, they’re not given that option, you’re not communicated to them to do so. So the platform is failing, the platform does kind of know what to do with them. If America was trying to get them to buy more things on Amazon, it would know exactly how to notify your mother. Right? 

RZ The mechanisms and the efficiencies are in place in the commercial realm, right? 

PF This just makes it so infuriating.

RZ It makes it so infuriating. It’s not that surprising. I do want to talk about at some point, you know, a lot of the positives positives we saw in the experience but let’s let’s keep going with the journey. Let’s assume my mom did somehow find out because how do most grandmas and grandpas use their phones? Messaging. My mom is in Facebook Messenger, Whatsapp and SMS she doesn’t call it WhatsApp. She doesn’t call it messenger. She calls it her phone. She’s like well just message me on my phone. And and then it comes through and the notifications all are happening on my mom’s phone makes so many different noises in a one hour period. It’s something. Anyway, so I decided I’m going to register for her. Okay, so I have made the assumption that this was going to be too steep of a hill to climb. I wasn’t gonna send her the link to the Vaccine Finder in New York City, by Vaccine Finder.

PF Let’s be mindful. This is the woman who makes you call Ubers for her because she doesn’t want to deal. [Rich laughs]

RZ This is true. Even though I put Uber on her phone wired up the credit card, she still doesn’t want to deal.

PF What is amazing is she understands she’s learned the database schema and all the required parts of the transaction. She just has no interest in doing them herself.

RZ That’s right. That’s right. She’s not interested. And also it’s a chance for her to reconnect with me, she gets to talk to me and says, “I’m your mother, why would you make me do that?” Okay, so we go move forward the process, I start the process. And the way it works is this very basic, you give it a zip code.

PF City site, health site, like what is it?

RZ It’s a New York City sanction site, essentially what they were doing was like, you can’t just go to any hospital and sign up. The city wants you to register, you meet certain criteria so that nobody skips the line, etc, etc. So you have to answer a bunch of questions, these prerequisite questions, are you allergic to vaccines, etc. And then they have to ask you a few questions to make sure you fit some criteria. Like are you a healthcare worker, etc. And for my mom, it’s that she’s over 65. So we go through that process and then you’re sent off to essentially a calendar finder that’s hitting a bunch of—

PF So she’s totally credentialed. She’s valid. 

RZ She she’s allowed to go get one, I just tried to get her a slot. Okay. And then what you had was on the other end of it, were different vaccination sites, whether they be inside of hospitals are at certain clinics, were posting openings to get vaccinated effectively. Okay. 

PF Oh god, this is this is gonna end with like, Yankee Stadium, someone being like, “Hey, you want tickets to win tickets?”

RZ Yeah, I mean, Brooklyn, Navy Yard is one of the locations there were a few that came up. It was like three in the morning, Brooklyn Navy Yard. I think the Javits Center is getting set up. It wasn’t terrible. But here’s the issue. The issue is it’s that classic sort of in queue, you know, race condition problem where it wasn’t locking your slot up, like Ticketmaster solved this problem, right? So if you have tickets in hand, as you’re going to pay for them, they’re in your hand, and they can’t go to anyone else. So what happened a few times for me—

PF You know, what’s interesting is somebody was complaining online that one of the state governments was using Eventbrite to schedule vaccinations. I was like, that’s a great idea. 

RZ It’s a great idea. They solved this particular problem, which is—

PF Actually, this is a hard problem. It’s not trivial to solve this problem.

RZ It’s not trivial. What happens with Ticketmaster is, you’ll get a countdown. So you have three minutes to grab these tickets, you’ll see the clock ticking down as you’re buying tickets. Anyway, so this happened to me a few times, and I’m pretty fast on the keyboard. So can you imagine if my mom was filling this thing out? I missed it a handful of times.

PF I always think too, for New York State in New York City stuff like so many people using it. English is not their first language like the computers are slow, just like, ugh.

RZ That’s right. And here’s the other thing is this is old software, it’s running ideally, in a browser. People are not using browsers anymore, they’re on their phones.

PF They’re texting, really, text is the best interface for most people.

RZ Text is the best interface actually at a bot would have been ideal here to take you through the process. But it was messy. It was cumbersome. Here’s the other thing I would share. I know New York City is really sensitive right now to making sure there’s fairness in the distribution of these vaccines, right. And you could see them trying to audit and make sure that the fairness is there through this process. But what in fact happened was this Paul, guess who knows how to navigate through this process?

PF Oh, I mean, it’s a web based application?

RZ Yep. 

PF Well, I would put my odds on you.

RZ Well no, just people who are tech savvy, frankly, come from privileged circumstances that knew how to essentially play the game and know not it’s it’s like a video game getting that tell you.

PF It’s you and me. We’re good. We’re good at this.

RZ Exactly, exactly. And you just highlighted a few things, older people, people who don’t have access to computers, and use browsers in traditional ways. All the obstacles that were put in place to make sure that this was fairly distributed, actually created obstacles. All the the measures that were put in place to make it fair, made it harder.

PF Yes, see you put that friction in, because—

RZ You’re trying to be fair!

PF And this is tricky. It’s sad, because the web was supposed to be the platform, the most accessible platform, but the reality is that like WhatsApp is the most accessible platform to most people on earth. 

RZ That’s right. The truth is design is your great equalizer here. Not asking more questions to make sure you’re not cheating, but rather design. In the very, very beginning of the process. It should say English or Spanish. A huge population of people speak Spanish in New York City, like right out of the gate, take me down path B and that’s the end of that. Like I didn’t see that anywhere. I’m sure that option is there. But like that kind of thinking. That’s how you provide equity in fact, not through more barriers and whatnot. So we get to the hospital. What’s the number one thing I see, while we’re there, by the way, I want to speak positively for a second here, we went to a city hospital, essentially not a private hospital, everyone was incredibly helpful. Everyone was incredibly nice. It was organized, they were really trying hard to make this as painless process as possible for people who don’t have money, frankly.

PF New York does a great job at civic infrastructure when it puts its mind to it. You’re telling this story, and you were able to navigate this website and get your mother a slot, and everything is worked out good, right. But I’m looking online. And I mean, it was like, You told me this story. And I kind of kept an eye out. And Twitter is full of people—

RZ Frustrated.

PF Losing their marbles. Because the site crashes. And so so it’s like, I know, we’re not—I don’t want to beat up on the city right now, the city is having a hard time. But at the same time, like whether we want to be angry in New York City or not, this critical piece of infrastructure, dealing with the greatest public health crisis of our lifetime, was completely failed many of the users to the point that they needed to complain online. So that’s a crisis that is a failure of the product. It has to be addressed.

RZ And it’s not a tech problem, its a design problem. I’ll say it again, it’s an accessibility problem. It’s a design problem. Above all else, the tech is actually secondary, we get there smooth process, frankly, she gets that her first dose of a vaccine.

PF You sent me a picture, it really actually kind of cheered me up because I love your mom. And she’s actually very good civic support for the Lebanese and community and neighbourhood. 

RZ Helps a lot of people. 

PF Gets a lot of people to the doctor, and so on. And so like, Sam, getting vaccinated is actually kind of good for the world. Yeah, we’re getting we’re getting to the other side. That’s what that meant to me,

RZ The last option observation I’ll share is people just walking up, no slot. No, nothing. They’re like, I heard there’s vaccine vaccinations going on? Can I get one? Probably more people were in the main area where this was happening, that had no registration than people who did have a registration. And that makes sense to me. Right? They heard it on like, 880 WYN news or whatever, CBS News or whatever.

PF People need to understand, like, if you came in the city after the internet happened, right? Like, you have a very different New York, like, what is mostly happening the way New York City used to work is people would drive around in their cars, doing things. And then the radio would say something, and then you would go do with the radio said. [Rich laughs] For vaccines, you can call—. And then you would like stop and call that number. And it’d be like, yeah, and an automated voice would be like, “Go to hospital” and then you would turn your Chevy Caprice around. Yeah. And going down and there might be 20,000 people there. You’re just sort of kind of hanging out until somebody told you what was up. Yeah. And that was how we live their lives and use the hagstrom map to get where you’re going. Right. So what we forget living in our world, because you and I are in a bubble in a half. Right? What we forget is that 60% of the city still kind of operates roughly along those policies. 

RZ Totally, totally. It’s the Williamsburg dichotomy, right? It’s like old Polish ladies next to hipsters, and professionals in the same neighborhood. 

PF That’s right. What’s tricky here, right, is every single one of those lives prioritized by risks deserves to be protected by the vaccine, like we’re gonna, our civil society is absolutely committed to that. We are decided on that, and we believe in it. And so we’re in a tricky spot where the digital tools are doing their best, but it’s really fallen short, whereas meanwhile, the guy who hears it on 1010 is like, I’m going over there. Like he’s getting clear signal. He just can’t operate on it.

RZ Yeah, that’s right. And you know, what’s interesting was they took a few people, they’re like, we’ve got some slots. You know, why? Because the system was failing, and they weren’t able to fill up the slots.

PF Well, this happened to us. So this is really tricky. There was a Brooklyn army terminal, this this email chain went around, it was like, we have 400 extra vaccines, if anybody wants to come down and get them.

RZ And I think they expire, no? Don’t they expire or something?

PF Because because of the cold chain, they’re out of the freezer, right or whatever. So I got that. I’m like, I’ll bike on down there. I’d love the vaccine. That’d be really cool. And my wife is like, I think that’s a hoax. And people actually followed up like this is a hoax. It wasn’t a hoax. But it was New York City. No it wasn’t, but 1000s of people shouldn’t have like, everybody’s like waiting in line. It was that scenario and they immediately ran out. And of course, there’s no planning and it wasn’t able to communicate what’s going on. There’s an article about it in New York mag, somebody went down. I mean, you know, it’s vaccines. Let’s go get our vaccines.

RZ I want to ask you a question.

PF Please. 

RZ What’s broken such that me getting Coldplay tickets on Ticketmaster or getting the new Call of Duty at Gamestop. The systems to cue me up and make it smooth as silk for those processes are so much better than getting someone vaccinated?

PF I mean, I think Occam’s razor, again, it’s funny as you get older, like it’s just like, what’s the simplest thing that probably happened? There’s no need for conspiracy, there’s no need to cast blame, an artificial schedule was put forth, the budget was probably not clear at first, like all the typical things with procurement happened. And there are two things went wrong. One is that user experience for the vast bulk of people favored people who could parse and understand complicated web experiences, which actually isn’t many people anymore.

RZ Okay. But let me throw back at you what you just said the first one, which is a huge one, which is, the truth is Call of Duty, you can plan for that release for almost six months, like you can put the systems in, like this is being cobbled together in real time. That’s real, and we should acknowledge it. Right? So you made that that’s a that’s, I heard that in your first point here.

PF Well, I mean, that said, though, well, it’s also like, look, why are the states doing individual responses to this? Why isn’t there a Federal Open Source code base for vaccine scheduling? We could have spent 10 or $15 million once with five languages, call center support at the federal. I mean, I mean, trivial amounts of money, and we’re gonna spend hundreds of millions of dollars across the states. 

RZ The responsibility of getting these systems up is disparate, right? It’s all over the place. But we’re talking about New York City, there are a lot of states having problems right now. Like it’s not going well. Florida—

PF But you can see the data model here and everybody is gonna you know, when I say that, I can hear everybody, well, you know, HIPAA and healthcare and wherever else like that, screw it, figure it out. It’s not that hard. And everybody who runs in waving earns about HIPAA. You know, when you actually deal with it, it’s like, okay, it’s two weeks of paperwork that suck. Yeah, like, it’s like, I got to fill out a bunch of forms. And then sometimes I have to hire an expediter. And sometimes it’s gonna cost like 30 grand to get all the all the work together. But everybody loves to weigh their arms about how incredibly impossible it ever is to work on healthcare and finance or whatever. It’s all garbage. And I hate it. And I’m actually I get I’ve gotten myself angry. Because my entire career I’ve heard how like, “you can’t have good software and that because we choose to live in a shit world.” And then they punch themselves in the face, that’s how that conversation “Look at me, bam, I punch myself in the face because I hate my life.” Yeah. And you’re like, “Why don’t you just use a windowing toolkit instead?” They’re like, “I could never!” And I hate it. I hate it.

RZ The problems aren’t that hard, is what you’re saying.

PF I swear to God, we’re looking at a CRM problem right now. And it’s just every single it’s like, “Oh, well, you know, Paul, to me..” It’s like, I can see the schema. I can see the Postgres SQL statements that are that product, I can see the API on top, I know the toolkit you’re using to individualize it. So where’s the complexity? Where’s the impossible part?

RZ You’re touching on something that is very fundamental to how we think about software, which is to demystify it and make it simpler, which usually leads to less money for agencies and consultants and software licensing. But you know what? That’s okay. Because there’s always more to do, right?

PF It’s not just that, why doesn’t it because that’s the way this industry grows. There’s all these artificial nonsense modes. Like, frankly, were more expensive upfront that a lot of places incredibly cheap over time, like our clients now know this, that’s why we’re doing well. But the reason we’re comfortable doing that is because it’s coming for us anyway. So why not just run into the fire? Like our core product, the thing we were building five years ago, we’re doing much less work to build new bigger things. Now, expectations have risen. We charge a little more and so but like, the stuff we were doing five years ago, is basically thrown in the garbage, you can do that with five clicks. Not all of it, but some of it. 

RZ That’s good. That’s technology, right? 

PF Well, that’s why we chose this industry. And then there’s this vast, enormous, exploitative industry of semi regulated whiners who are just sort of like “but can’t because it won’t work” You know, and I actually have a lot of empathy for the people who have built this damn thing because they were doing their best. There’s absolutely no way they weren’t doing their best. And it still went into the toilet because of all the regular reasons. 

RZ You know, I will say this, I don’t know this for sure. So don’t hold me to it. I’m not a spokesperson for anybody ever. But I think what they did was Paul, I think they carbon copied the testing software to schedule a test, is what they did, because I think in some places, the copy design—

PF It wasn’t designed for 500,000 people wanting every single slot.

RZ Well this is the thing, right? Because unlike tests which we got ahead of and now there’s plenty of test kits, the vaccines you have to post the slots once you have the vaccines in hand, right so what you were seeing was over time, they were just sort of pop up randomly throughout the day and I think it’s gonna get harder and harder, right? 

PF This is the thing I’m seeing, I was seeing online and people are going like, “Oh god, how lame is it that the state can’t even build software and has to use Eventbrite for its vaccines? What a disaster.” But the reality is, you should use Eventbrite. They solved this problem.

RZ Look, Rite Aid is vaccinating. The city has a deal with Rite Aid now, it’s not, it hasn’t rolled out yet. People are saying use Walgreens, use Rite Aid, Scott Gottlieb who’s like a well regarded, he was former FDA has been very vocal throughout the process, like use commercial franchises that are out there. They have the facilities, they have nurses, they have everybody. Evenbrite is no different right? Eventbrite has been optimized, that software has been to hell and back to get to where it is today to do this exact thing.

PF Well, if 50,000 people want one ticket, it actually can deal with that issue.

RZ It knows what to do.

PF Yeah. And look, the thing is, is like you can’t afford, a state government can’t afford to solve that problem. That is that’s millions of dollars to actually get that right over the course of years. It’s not it’s culture and understanding human behavior as much as it’s math, and like, you know, the Byzantine generals problem and, and clock coordination and all this stuff, right? Like it is. It’s actually just really, really fundamental. And then they encapsulate that into an endpoint, and then they end up having a really high market cap, and that that’s when things work in our industry. And so like that, when I see people like, “Oh, they shouldn’t use Eventbrite” I’m like “No, God, please get them in there.” So we’re sitting here saying that we have a solution. What is the process that you would apply? If somebody came in and said, I need to build a vaccination website? How would you have avoided this situation?

RZ That’s a great question. I think I would do a couple of things. First thing I would do is how are you going to communicate on a large scale and is targeted away as possible, right? And the truth is, there are ads that go out into the world that are, frankly targeted at older people, whether it be—

PF For my jitterbug phone.

RZ CBS Sunday morning.

PF Oh, God. It’s soothing.

RZ CBS Sunday morning. I know about every prescription medication for rheumatoid arthritis because of CBS Sunday morning.

PF People don’t know, we should do a whole show at some point, eventually. Rich loves CBS Sunday morning. What I loved was seeing the clips from CBS Sunday morning after the riot in the Capitol where it’s people talking about absolutely serious fundamental civil rights challenges. But in the same damn tone. “America’s heart is at risk, you know, and here’s a word from from Losartan.” [Rich laughs]

RZ So target the people communicate to them. And then the call to action, the call to action needs to be simple. Ideally, it’s either I don’t know, if a URL is too much. I don’t know if a person that isn’t that tech savvy knows what to do with the URL, right? I would say text 56889 or something and then get that process going. A URL in an SMS message.

PF That’s what I was gonna say. So here’s why. The SMS message is the actual record, nobody bookmarks, or it goes back to anything, but they will hold on to the SMS. But an SMS message in which the name of the both parties is labeled. If it’s like coming from, you know, if it’s just called like health, and you tap in, and it’s like blah, blah, blah, click here to go and do your scheduling. And then it’ll take you over to the on device browser. And then people can always find their way back. That’s the pattern that everybody knows, is how to get back to a thread in a text message. 

RZ That’s right, I would do one other thing differently, Paul. I would ask less questions, reduce the friction to getting the appointment. In fact, what I would do is this, for every 30 minutes slot, I put three people in the slot, if all three show up great, if two show up, that’s fine. If one show up, that’s fine, and stop trying to track them. Nobody’s gonna call us by the way, if we didn’t go, nobody was gonna call anybody, right. So what you want to do here is, it’s a little messier, and it’s a little less tidy, and you can audit it as well. But more will go out, right, you can get going. 

PF Essentially, you’re saying like, go for eventual consistency, rather than trying to make it atomic, right? Rather than trying to get them to schedule the right time, get them in, get the vaccine and sort of have all that logged in a perfect way. Get them in and figure out the way whatever will work right to get more jabs into the arms.

RZ Exactly. Because once I’m there, they asked my mom questions, they asked her a handful, but she didn’t they didn’t even have to ask her as many because I filled out the online form. But once you’re there, they’re they’re gonna get that vaccine. Like the incentive is so strong here. Nobody’s gonna go in and mess around and just take slots and not go right now.

PF I mean, that’s extreme outlier behavior like that can happen and you should maybe predict it but—

RZ Lower the friction.

PF Rather than trying to expect that you should just be watching And then adjusting as quickly as possible as you go and look, I mean, the other thing, which we talked about earlier, but like that SMS flow conversation should be calling out in the background to various API’s and then translating that back into the native language of the person who you’re communicating with, about status. And it feels weird, right? Because you’re literally back to terminal based applications. But it actually turns out that like, the text message, as command line with multiple choice questions, is a good universal interface. People know the difference between 123 and A, B, and C, and they, they know how to give you your name. And it’s actually less controlled and more chaotic than a lot of web forms and structure. But there are good tools for building to that, and then you go out to your Eventbrite, no one needs to ever see that. Right. That’s, that’s probably the only mistake they made with Eventbrite. It’s, it’s confusing to people to schedule vaccinations through Eventbrite, it should go probably to the API and sort of keep the health care branding and communication on top. But I have to say the plan you just put forth, righ,t is going to get you into the market in, it could be weeks or a couple months. And then you’re in a position where you have something pretty fluid that you can iterate on top of and that’s the other big part of this. 

RZ Look, you kept going back to SMS. I mean, that’s where the grandparent’s pics are that they’re in messaging, right? And so they know that world, and they’re more comfortable with it.

PF Or SMS light, right? Like there’s there there are increasingly app and software delivery options inside of these platforms.

RZ Look, it’s worth acknowledging, this is hard. New York City’s incredibly dense and population from, it’s a very dense population. It wasn’t an absolute, you know, flaming failure by any means.

PF Your mom got her vaccine.

RZ She did, but she wouldn’t have gotten it without me. I mean, let’s just be realistic. There are a lot of, I have people in my apartment building that are elderly, that I’ve been thinking about pinging them and saying, do you want me to do this for you? Because there’s no way they’re gonna know how to do it.

PF Ping them. Yeah, ’cause they’re not gonna get in there. But then they gotta get, I mean, getting them there. It’s just hard. Look, I mean, let’s just define for one second, before we go, true, well funded civil society, the way it would look is they call you with a range of, they’d already know a little bit about you, they call you with a range of options, you would schedule probably through a voice call, that would be the way you could do this. Or you could do it through text. And then a car would come and pick you up and take you. That is probably the optimal like public health health strategy.

RZ Like in Finland, that’s probably happening.

PF Or even better, they’re coming, you know, they put the nurses, it’s actually, you can’t do it with this vaccine, because it needs to stay cold, right. So you can’t go house to house.

RZ Food trucks could, I mean, there’s probably you can equip a food truck with it. I think. 

If you could take a pollo loco taco truck from our neighborhood down here in and repurpose it. And then you could get your vaccine. I think that would really make a lot of sense. I mean, I think our new administration actually, is thinking a little more broadly about it.

RZ I think so too. I think you touched on it briefly. I mean, centralization, and a single strategy that informs rather than just throwing them out and mailing them in boxes to different states, I think is not helpful. I think that’s one of the stumbling blocks here. I mean, look, this is this you we could wade into how you know, medical coverage should be something that’s more centralized and more standardized, and that’s better for everybody, but we’re not going to go there.

PF So look, we are we are people who all we like to do enormous amount of the time, we like to talk about problems like these. And the critical thing to know about us is we don’t have all the answers and we actually think that’s a good thing because then you work arduously through the challenges to lower risk. And that is what we do for our clients and for our for our families and our pets.

RZ Check us out at Postlight.co you’ll see some case studies we got some new case studies coming up real soon.

PF Website is nice and fast these days. I like it, we really we got to a good place last year with the site.

RZ It is good. 

PF Feel good about that. 

RZ I’m proud.

PF Well alright my friend, let’s get back to work.

RZ Yep, everyone stay safe. Hello 2021 we will round that corner. Gosh, darn it.

PF We are. We’re all going to get vaccinated and then we’re gonna we’re gonna throw the dumbest Postlight party imaginable. 

RZ It’ll be preposterously stupid.

PF I don’t even know what a margarita cannon is. I don’t think one exists. But we’re gonna get one built and just literally shoot, and they can be non-alcoholic margaritas into the faces of everyone as they come off the elevator. Like just like, is this—Margarita cannon right in the face. [Rich laughs] 

RZ That sounds pretty good. 

PF Horrible margarita nightmares is what we’re promising everyone.

RZ Wow. Dialed up the marketing there, Paul. 

PF Look, I mean, it turns out a margarita can only set you back a couple.

RZ Alright, everyone. Have a great week.

PF Alright, bye! [music ramps up, plays alone for 3 seconds, ends]